tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post111456402882826720..comments2023-10-19T22:49:15.517+01:00Comments on Ulster's Doomed!: UCUNF and the Irish languageHorsemanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16655806346968204169noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-50593073950423996852009-06-11T10:06:20.964+01:002009-06-11T10:06:20.964+01:00Interesting to see comments like "they (Union...Interesting to see comments like "they (Unionists)must connect better with their fellow Irishmen and women." Don't see too many efforts from the nationalist \ republican posters on this blog to make much effort to connect with their Unionist fellow-Ulstermen (scary word for this blog, eh?), other than to retreat to stereotyped images of Unionism and Unionists as tribalists and bigots who just need to wake up and recognise they're wrong. Doesn't look much like constructive engagement in my book.TyroneAndynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-67008326903595004472009-05-31T20:25:55.208+00:002009-05-31T20:25:55.208+00:00Did Jeremy Hanley not speak a few words of Irish t...Did Jeremy Hanley not speak a few words of Irish to some Irish speakers lobby group in the early 1990's.I think it was at Rathgael House in Bangor the Department of Education HQ.hoboroadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01474379737795624096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-78334793745068374832009-05-30T23:16:23.547+00:002009-05-30T23:16:23.547+00:00What about Jewish or Muslim people running on a UC...What about Jewish or Muslim people running on a UCUNF party ticket?Or a Catholic Unionist englishman like Charles Moore of the Daily Telegraph did not one of his relatives once run on a Ulster Liberal Party ticket back in the 1960's?hoboroadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01474379737795624096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-65052882152737678972009-05-30T22:49:47.206+00:002009-05-30T22:49:47.206+00:00How many members of UCUNF are openly gay?We all kn...How many members of UCUNF are openly gay?We all know there have been Gay Unionist mps in the past.Could David Cameron use Northern Ireland as some sort of testing ground for gay English Tories.What about black or asians standing for the Tories.hoboroadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01474379737795624096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-1416063661812628242009-05-30T14:06:55.011+00:002009-05-30T14:06:55.011+00:00Did John Taylor once joke about handing South Arma...Did John Taylor once joke about handing South Armagh to Dublin in exchange for a nice part of Donegal?hoboroadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01474379737795624096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-67535461203549694672009-05-30T11:45:29.796+00:002009-05-30T11:45:29.796+00:00Seymour Major were do you stand on extending the 1...Seymour Major were do you stand on extending the 1967 Abortion Act to Northern Ireland?It exists in England Scotland and Wales.Why not Northern Ireland?I think David Cameron would be all for it.Or do some British laws exist only on the mainland?hoboroadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01474379737795624096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-26950695830698628412009-05-29T13:56:48.816+00:002009-05-29T13:56:48.816+00:00What ever happened to Love ulster hate 44 percent ...What ever happened to Love ulster hate 44 percent of the people who live there.One wee march in Dublin and they disappear Willie Frazier could always back winners.hoboroadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01474379737795624096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-24961880911841829542009-05-29T13:03:39.882+00:002009-05-29T13:03:39.882+00:00dub,
From the heart, Well said.dub,<br /><br />From the heart, Well said.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-84492578100406890282009-05-29T11:43:29.031+00:002009-05-29T11:43:29.031+00:00seymour,
how on earth can people in the north b...seymour,<br /><br /> how on earth can people in the north become less inward looking and develop a brand new national identity at the same time?<br /><br /> a local ulster pride, yes indeed. what cultural border are you talking about/ the one that starts at banbridge and snakes its way round to that delightful coleraine place?<br /><br /> . Anybody who thinks that the old Unionist mentality is going to just melt away under such a scenario is utterly naive.<br /><br /> ah yes, so because the dear old bigots will not move on irish nationalists in the north will just have to pretend to be the same nationality as them which is what? ulster boorish neanderthal hate irish hate catholics hate english. yeah that's really going to work isn't it?<br /><br /> this new identity is well advanced in GAWA aka ni football. its a kind of watered down we are the people loyalism with a dash of irishness thrown in. you might have noticed that it is explicitly anti irish nationalist and also that no and i repeat no nationaists whatsoever are buying it.dubnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-44399811178490174582009-05-29T11:35:01.786+00:002009-05-29T11:35:01.786+00:00Seymour,
Obviously you are a nayce unionist but wh...Seymour,<br />Obviously you are a nayce unionist but when push comes to shove you still retreat within the walls of Derry. You should stay "outside" a little bit longer and enjoy our company. We aint half bad really when you get to know us. Céad míle fáilte and all that.<br /><br />MY PASSPORTS' GREEN.....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-68848127416383811422009-05-29T03:59:30.910+00:002009-05-29T03:59:30.910+00:00With all due respect Horseman, that separate ident...With all due respect Horseman, that separate identity is building already, despite the political discourse. The more harmony you create, the stronger that identity becomes. I would suggest that is far more "natural" than the vision you are putting forward.<br /><br />The vision is not, either, a version of Ulster Nationalism. That is a quite distinct label which, if you consider the points made by Chekov is really the preserve of the DUP.<br /><br />The third identity scenario would bring NI much nearer to the position of Wales and Scotland. A policy which brings this about is entirely consistent with Unionism.<br /><br />As to the Culteral Border, you have it the wrong way around. The Cultural border is there now and it is very stark. It would still be that way if there was a referendum tomorrow which the Nationalists won and it would not solve Northern Ireland's conflict. Anybody who thinks that the old Unionist mentality is going to just melt away under such a scenario is utterly naive.<br /><br />The third Identity IS the best way forward for NI. A society that is relaxed about its relationship with both the UK and ROI can be beneficial not only to itself but also to both the UK and ROI and it will become prosperous. <br /><br />You have also got to bear in mind that within a generation, political thinking will have moved on in all the countries outside Northern Ireland. People within it, meanwhile, will be able to buy into that provided they can become less inward looking more relaxed about themsevles. As a new super-identity builds in Europe, the border question and sovereignty will then become less relevant in importance. <br /><br />I'm sorry if I am ranting on a bit here. Perhaps it will be better if I develop this theme in my posts.Seymour Majornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-36751538876283864442009-05-28T20:23:57.495+00:002009-05-28T20:23:57.495+00:00Sorry, Seymour, but on that last point I fundament...Sorry, <B>Seymour</B>, but on that last point I fundamentally disagree. There is no reason whatsoever why one should want a separate identity for NI, unless you are peddling a version of 'ulster nationalism'.<br /><br />As NI moves closer to reunification it would be both natural and beneficial for the border to fade to insignificance - not to be resurrected as a 'cultural border' within a united country.<br /><br />In other words, people in NI should move closer to the rest of the country. But if there is a group (unionists) who do not wish to, well that's their choice. They will shrink in numbers and will eventually integrate - it will just take them longer.<br /><br />It sounds to me that you are trying to co-opt northern nationalists into a laager of separateness as reunification approaches. That is a purely unionist place to be, and nationalists should have nothing to do with it.<br /><br />Yes, let's make NI a better place for all (not just the kids), but one very beneficial thing in this respect is for NI to take its natural place on the island. For this unionists have to just get over their border obsession. People in NI should be able to play a full and equal part in the life of the country (or nation, as I would see it) without unionists constantly trying to block, stall, disrupt, sneer, ignore, oppose, fight, or look down on them. Unionists have to play their part on the island as equals - if they really think that interacting with the rest of us is going to weaken their arguments for the 'union' then surely those arguments must be mighty weak.Horsemannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-25760364104413541562009-05-28T20:07:07.031+00:002009-05-28T20:07:07.031+00:00Further to my last comment, I meant to mention one...Further to my last comment, I meant to mention one further point. I may be a unionist but, at the risk of stating political heresy, I dont see that as the most important political thing for the people in Northern Ireland. <br /><br />Our aim should be to make NI a better place for our children so that they can enjoy and identify with people from all communities in Northern Ireland. <br /><br />In other words, it is important that NI does build its own identity separate from the UK and separate from ROI so that if the population wants to become part of a United Ireland or to remain in the UK, that they move forward together.<br /><br />It is just possible that there are Nationalist out there that have reached a similar vision for Northern Ireland. I hope so.Seymour Majornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-77842093162438830722009-05-28T19:45:16.108+00:002009-05-28T19:45:16.108+00:00Anonymous (the latest one),
That is an interestin...Anonymous (the latest one),<br /><br />That is an interesting comment. You may recall that Tony Blair apologised for the Potatoe Famine in 2002. I recall the Pope apologising for the Catholic treatment of Galileo and the Archbishop of Canterbury recently apologising for the attitude of his predecessors towards Charles Darwin. What you are suggesting is not certainly not unprecedented. Taking responsibility for a past event of a predecessor is a way of helping to heal the wounds of communal history.<br /><br />The Northern Ireland Government of 1921-1972 was not the only party at fault in the treatment of the Catholics. The UK Government was certainly at fault for neglecting Northern Ireland. I think you will find that soon (I cant say when) you will find a UK Prime Minister apologising for what happened in that period. I hope that turns out to be David Cameron.<br /><br />It may take a bit longer for somebody from the UUP to say something similar (I hope not)but I am confident that will also happen one day.Seymour Majornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-71516469615137877332009-05-28T13:38:31.397+00:002009-05-28T13:38:31.397+00:00Do not hold your breath on that one anon.Unionists...Do not hold your breath on that one anon.Unionists do not say sorry.hoboroadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01474379737795624096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-36004388424677121502009-05-28T12:52:17.383+00:002009-05-28T12:52:17.383+00:00Has unionism in any of its incarnations ever owned...Has unionism in any of its incarnations ever owned up and accepted responsibility for the creation and running of the "protestant state for the protestant people" and the "cold house" for nationalists that resulted?<br />To my mind as an "easterner" surely this would be a starting point for reconciliation whereby the wrongs perpetrated by all sides could be forgiven leading to a new dawn for the people of Ireland. I think the New Ireland Forum was an attempt at this? but to my mind to succeed the impetus would have to come from within the unionist community.<br />Are there any signs of this within Unionism? or are all their energies used up in negativity (against nationalism and against themselves which it seems to me from down here is more vitriolic)<br />How can we, as nationalists, facilitate this?<br /><br />MY PASSPORTS' GREEN.....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-50816793805986831342009-05-28T11:25:25.344+00:002009-05-28T11:25:25.344+00:00I think you will see more people of a Unionist bac...I think you will see more people of a Unionist background start to assert there irishness as the DUP get more and more strident.Some Unionists seen themselves as respectable people and the DUP can be seen as moneygrabbing philistines who let the side down.hoboroadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01474379737795624096noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-49174962811244886202009-05-28T11:09:49.927+00:002009-05-28T11:09:49.927+00:00Anonymous,
I certainly think that there are some ...<B>Anonymous</B>,<br /><br />I certainly think that there are some within unionism who aspire towards civic rather than tribal unionism. But there always have been such people, and they have always believed that their day was about to come. This is just the umpteenth false dawn.<br /><br />I think, though, that some within unionism are waking up to the demographic change, but very few have an answer to it. Oddly enough, some think that the way to deal with an increasing nationalist population is to try to pretend that NI is even more 'British' than before. They'll be an interesting footnote in future history books.<br /><br />The clever ones (few, I admit) are those who are starting to accept that they are in Ireland, and that they must connect better with their fellow Irishmen and women. There will be some strain between these ones and the 'civic' unionists (who are, in many cases, just 'nayce' tribalists), because the ultimate aim has to be peace, reconciliation, integration, economic advance, social and cultural strength, environmental rotection, etc, etc. And you cannot do that if you pretend that NI is an island - you have, eventually, to accept that it is part of a larger whole. The 'civics' (aka UCUNF) try to pretend that that whole is the UK, whilst geography tells us that they are wrong (and thus shows them up as tribalists).<br /><br />Post-tribal unionists would, frankly, not be as 'unionist' as UCUNF. Nor even as blinkered as Alliance. So far, they have no political vehicle, and probably never will, so they will (as before) in VERY small numbers make their way over to nationalism. Nationalism's challenge is to find a way to ease that transition so that more can make the switch.Horsemannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-90418599319858329562009-05-28T10:31:55.183+00:002009-05-28T10:31:55.183+00:00Are we witnessing moderate unionism stealing the A...Are we witnessing moderate unionism stealing the Alliance party clothes?<br />Has unionism woken up to the potential time bomb as described here?<br />Will these moderate unionists become "more Irish than the Irish themselves" eventually as with earlier plantations or will their present aim prevail in the long run?<br />What do you think Horseman?<br /><br /><br />MY PASSPORTS` GREEN.....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-73500822186725826302009-05-27T22:02:58.784+00:002009-05-27T22:02:58.784+00:00Horseman,
Firstly, this is an excellect contribut...Horseman,<br /><br />Firstly, this is an excellect contribution to this issue.<br /><br />If some Grand Strategy has been or is being devised behind the scenes which includes elevating the Irish Language beyond sectarianism, I am not aware of it. <br /><br />What you will find amongst conservatives is that this kind of initiative would be driven just as much from the heart as from the head. It fits in with our vision of how the Union should be - one of embracing cultural diversity. <br /><br />As the French would say, <br />"Vive la différence"Seymour Majornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-88273714731671220452009-05-27T19:13:30.503+00:002009-05-27T19:13:30.503+00:00That's interesting, dub, thanks.
Did you read Fra...That's interesting, <B>dub</B>, thanks.<br /><br />Did you read Frank McNally's account of that game in the Irish Times? Quite funny (but then he is sually one of the wittiest journalists on the scene at present).Horsemannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-47469334458747035832009-05-27T15:27:33.797+00:002009-05-27T15:27:33.797+00:00i think a ucunf member... ie earl storey.. attende...i think a ucunf member... ie earl storey.. attended the derry monaghan match in celtic park in derry the other day and in fact was involved in some kind of blessing of the new stand there. he also made some very warm comments about the gaa. i believe he is a c of i reverend. so you seem to be onto something here.dubnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-25105680305732604692009-05-27T13:34:02.164+00:002009-05-27T13:34:02.164+00:00Good post keep up the good workGood post keep up the good workhoboroadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01474379737795624096noreply@blogger.com