tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post5523706853176076525..comments2023-10-19T22:49:15.517+01:00Comments on Ulster's Doomed!: Ending mandatory coalitionHorsemanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16655806346968204169noreply@blogger.comBlogger18125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-58960395697549660842010-04-25T11:00:47.515+00:002010-04-25T11:00:47.515+00:00"I agree with Jim Allister's proposal to ..."I agree with Jim Allister's proposal to end mandatory coalition,but not for identical reasons. Mandatory coalition enshrines a permanent unionist veto, which they have used very effectively over the 11 years since the GFA was approved."<br /><br />That's why it should NOT be ended. There are two nations on this island but sharing the same space. There SHOULD be BOTH a "permanent unionist veto" and a "permanent nationalist veto" just like the Walloons and the Flemish both have permanent vetoes on passing the laws of Belgium and just as the Annan Plan proposed for the Turks and Greeks of Cyprus.<br /><br />The whole point, for me, is that unionists do not have any right to govern Northern Ireland without the consent of nationalists but equally, oppositely and fairly, nationalists do not have any right to govern Northern Ireland without the consent of unionists and never will, united Ireland or no.<br /><br />We have the dinosaurs of the TUV who still seem to think that unionists are the majority in the assembly, OK with the PUP they are, but next election they won't be, and Alliance are going to hold the balance of power for the next 20 years. We then have the other set of dinosaurs, equal, opposite and completely and utterly morally equivalent to the TUV who think that we are in some transitional period to an all Ireland unitary state with bilingual signs up the Shankill and unionists acquising and finding their lost Irishness, and that that would not be a grave injustice. That an all Ireland can exist without Belgium of Cyprus style consociationalism, and must do so forever for it to exista at all. Unionists have had many of their hopes and dreams crushed, now nationalists must also go through that process of having many (not all) of their hopes and dreams crushed in order to produce fairness and equality, where all rights of unionists and nationalists are equal including those relating to nationality and self determination. Thankfully we'll have about 40 years to do that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-82636139966108237832009-10-01T05:20:51.767+00:002009-10-01T05:20:51.767+00:00Horseman, how about you try out Haloscan for comme...Horseman, how about you try out Haloscan for commentating? It works with blogger.<br /><br />http://www.haloscan.com/<br /><br />Andy McCann is screwing up this website.<br /><br />It is not about moderation, it is about not having some jackass like Andy McCann come and screw up every post. <br /><br />Let Andy McCann post under one name, not the 4 or 5 different names he does now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-18261604996911794082009-09-30T18:06:44.446+00:002009-09-30T18:06:44.446+00:00I agree with Jim Allister's proposal to end ma...I agree with Jim Allister's proposal to end mandatory coalition,but not for identical reasons. Mandatory coalition enshrines a permanent unionist veto, which they have used very effectively over the 11 years since the GFA was approved. If any nationalist does not believe this then look at the lack of devolution of policing and justice, no Irish language act, no changes in the educational system, etc., as well the fact that the Assembly has not been in existence for the majority of the previous 11 years due to unionist opposition. Peter Robinson proposed a 65% weighted majority because he wants the best of both worlds- eliminating the Sinn Fein veto while retaining the unionist veto. It is unlikely there will be a unionist majority after the next Assembly election. For example, if there were 53 in the unionist bloc, 47 in the nationalist bloc and 8 Alliance -Green members then what coalition would be formed ? Without mandatory coalition the Alliance-Green bloc would hold the balance of power. There would be no unionist nor a nationalist veto.<br />It is likely that the positions of First Minister and Deputy First Minister would be rotated among the parties, with more compatible ( or at least less disruptive ) pairings such as Alliance-UUP, Alliance-SDLP, Sinn Fein-Green, Alliance-DUP. No party could threaten to collapse the Assembly since a walkout by any party would mean that that party's votes would no longer count in any Assembly votes. You need look no further than the Belfast City Council, where the Alliance Party has held the balance of power since 1997. there have been Sinn Fein as well as unionist mayors elected solely due to the backing of the Alliance Party. Under the current arrangement of mandatory coalition, in the future I believe that it will not be an effective strategy for Sinn Fein or the TUV or DUP to collapse the Assembly. The British government ( probably Conservative ) could simply pass legislation ending mandatory coalition and tell the elected members of the Assembly to form their own voluntary government.Fahahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07951221152773556381noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-28858385053366326602009-09-30T15:17:31.527+00:002009-09-30T15:17:31.527+00:00Not at all. I'm sure the average Northern Nati...Not at all. I'm sure the average Northern Nationalist is more likely to vote for SF with no power than The SDLP with power.<br /><br />Speaks volumes about them...Watchernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-45840967394060499322009-09-30T12:05:33.086+00:002009-09-30T12:05:33.086+00:00Watcher said...
"Neither SF or The SDLP have...Watcher said...<br /><br />"Neither SF or The SDLP have any influence at Westminster - in the assembly they do..."<br /><br />Point deftly missed. I like how you seem to think you have a better understanding of the motivations of nationalist voters than the nationalists on this blog do.<br /><br />Not for the first time you're deluding yourself I'm afraid.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-76590658394638915382009-09-29T23:28:06.318+00:002009-09-29T23:28:06.318+00:00pagasppagaspUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567967149911966084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-23655804790414419842009-09-29T23:27:34.612+00:002009-09-29T23:27:34.612+00:00unfortunately your not liable to bump into watcher...unfortunately your not liable to bump into watcher mc cann in the street, hes never off the computer fighting for ulster(minus donegal, cavan,monaghan, west and south of the six counties and soon to be most of belfast) hahahahaUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567967149911966084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-27957335316652195252009-09-29T23:21:15.630+00:002009-09-29T23:21:15.630+00:00lock up your daughters it's watcher mc cann th...lock up your daughters it's watcher mc cann the internet stalker, with 200 namesUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06567967149911966084noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-18760626830074272622009-09-29T17:56:28.063+00:002009-09-29T17:56:28.063+00:00Anonymous said:
"Yes. They elect MPs they kn...Anonymous said:<br /><br />"Yes. They elect MPs they know won't sit in Westminster all the time out of principle. If the SDLP do a deal to exclude Sinn Fein the nationalist voters will abandon them and swing behind SF out of principle too."<br /><br />Neither SF or The SDLP have any influence at Westminster - in the assembly they do...Watchernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-26400940020914602132009-09-29T17:05:37.813+00:002009-09-29T17:05:37.813+00:00Watcher said...
"Hmmmm. I wonder. Perhaps Na...Watcher said...<br /><br />"Hmmmm. I wonder. Perhaps Nationalists would prefer to vote for candidates, who if elected would hold real power, rather than for those who wouldn't?"<br /><br />Yes. They elect MPs they know won't sit in Westminster all the time out of principle. If the SDLP do a deal to exclude Sinn Fein the nationalist voters will abandon them and swing behind SF out of principle too.<br /><br />In any case, providing Unionists + SDLP have a majority in the assembly, Unionists could allow The SDLP a disproportionate number of executive seats..."<br /><br />Ach that would be wile good of them. And it's something Unionists have a history of doing, voluntarily giving extra power to nationalists.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-27755990770455134502009-09-29T15:57:12.544+00:002009-09-29T15:57:12.544+00:00Any Chance we could have a blog of all Andy / watc...Any Chance we could have a blog of all Andy / watcher /annonymous / malestripper/ mcCann comments together please?<br />PS. as an ex student of psychology I find the choice of names hilarious, Freud would have had a field day!<br />ThanksAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-38974724365754581782009-09-29T15:55:46.324+00:002009-09-29T15:55:46.324+00:00picador said:
"I wonder would SF ever be pre...picador said:<br /><br />"I wonder would SF ever be prepared to cancel out this potential threat by taking their seats at Westminster on condition that they would forego the ridiculous and humiliating Oath of Allegiance. It is the Oath after all that is at the root of abstentionism?"<br /><br />I'm sure they're actively considering it! Even with the oath...Watchernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-23401050110008890262009-09-29T15:51:55.239+00:002009-09-29T15:51:55.239+00:00Not at all. I'm not commenting on the likeliho...Not at all. I'm not commenting on the likelihood of a hung parliament, merely on how these things tend to work in the real world. It's not as if The Conservatives and The DUP have any serious ideological differences. In the scenario sketched out, I think it's highly likely a deal would be done. <br /><br />Personally, I'm not bothered either way. If the assembly collapsed tomorrow, it would provide me with no dilemma. It certainly is far too large for the population it represents and could be halved in size tomorrow and no one would notice.Watchernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-2439822480008511162009-09-29T15:50:19.546+00:002009-09-29T15:50:19.546+00:00As with so many other unionist wishes, of course, ...<i>As with so many other unionist wishes, of course, the mirage of a 'hung parliament' after next year's election no doubt plays a part in their thinking. The power that the DUP might exercise if (and only if) it holds the balance of power necessary to enable Cameron to form a Tory government would be considerable.</i><br /><br />This is where abstentionism hurts nationalism. Callaghan's 1976-9 government and Major's 1992-97 government were propped up by unionists (to the detriment of nationalism). It is not that uncommon a phenomenon but nevertheless a dangerous one.<br /><br />I wonder would SF ever be prepared to cancel out this potential threat by taking their seats at Westminster on condition that they would forego the ridiculous and humiliating Oath of Allegiance. It is the Oath after all that is at the root of abstentionism?picadornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-7315185016955663862009-09-29T15:40:56.093+00:002009-09-29T15:40:56.093+00:00"But a Tory government dependent on DUP votes..."But a Tory government dependent on DUP votes and the grubby one-sided deals that this would involve would be a fatally weak one. The explicit blackmail that the DUP would exert on the Tories would ensure deep and lasting loathing for unionists amongst the London ruling class – hardly an optimal outcome for unionism."<br /><br />You're wrong about this. The Conservatives could live with majority rule in Ulster providing The DUP kept them in power. It's not as if The Conservatives have any sympathy with Irish Nationalism. Real politic old boy...<br /><br /><i>Sound like one of those wishful thinkers!</i>picadornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-8057217167201273182009-09-29T14:56:25.280+00:002009-09-29T14:56:25.280+00:00Anonymous said:
"Even if mandatory coalition...Anonymous said:<br /><br />"Even if mandatory coalition was somehow scrapped, and the SDLP colluded with unionists in keeping SF out of power, how long would it last realistically?<br /><br />The SDLP would likely be routed in any election that followed. The unionists would then be back to square one; if the SDLP's vote collapses SF could well be the largest party in Stormont and unionists would have no choice but to share power again."<br /><br />Robinson and Allister should realise nationalists aren't going to vote to in ways that maximise unionist power and minimise their own."<br /><br />Hmmmm. I wonder. Perhaps Nationalists would prefer to vote for candidates, who if elected would hold real power, rather than for those who wouldn't? <br /><br />In any case, providing Unionists + SDLP have a majority in the assembly, Unionists could allow The SDLP a disproportionate number of executive seats...Watchernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-69451586619249429172009-09-29T14:50:49.284+00:002009-09-29T14:50:49.284+00:00"But a Tory government dependent on DUP votes..."But a Tory government dependent on DUP votes and the grubby one-sided deals that this would involve would be a fatally weak one. The explicit blackmail that the DUP would exert on the Tories would ensure deep and lasting loathing for unionists amongst the London ruling class – hardly an optimal outcome for unionism."<br /><br />You're wrong about this. The Conservatives could live with majority rule in Ulster providing The DUP kept them in power. It's not as if The Conservatives have any sympathy with Irish Nationalism. Real politic old boy...Watchernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062377461026943825.post-1375287443929241432009-09-29T13:02:35.154+00:002009-09-29T13:02:35.154+00:00Even if mandatory coalition was somehow scrapped, ...Even if mandatory coalition was somehow scrapped, and the SDLP colluded with unionists in keeping SF out of power, how long would it last realistically?<br /><br />The SDLP would likely be routed in any election that followed. The unionists would then be back to square one; if the SDLP's vote collapses SF could well be the largest party in Stormont and unionists would have no choice but to share power again.<br /><br />Robinson and Allister should realise nationalists aren't going to vote to in ways that maximise unionist power and minimise their own.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com