In response to a proposal by Sinn Féin MLA Raymond McCartney that a new Meánscoil (Irish language secondary school) could be sited on the former site of Faughan Valley High School in Drumahoe, Campbell said:
"The second matter is that Mr McCartney also doesn't understand what the local response would be, if there were an approach to the Orange Order to see if a suitable site becoming available in [Derry's] Creggan estate, would they be interested in providing a boost to cultural education in that area?"Two things stand out from Campbell's odd response. Firstly, that he assumes a negative response (from local Protestant/unionist residents) to a school, merely because of its language of instruction. Why does he assume such bigotry? No young person will be obliged to go to it – nobody is proposing that it should be compulsory for local children to attend it – so what could his problem be? The presence of Irish-speakers in 'Protestant' territory? Secondly, his bizarre 'equivalence' between a place of education (the Meánscoil) and the Orange Order. Is this a new front in the campaign by unionist extremists to equate everything culturally Irish (first the GAA, now schools) with his community's triumphalist trouble-makers?
The clear message is that Campbell thinks that Drumahoe is for (bigoted) Protestants only, and that no culturally 'Irish' institution should be allowed. This is pure cultural apartheid – of the sort that his party colleague Upper Bann MLA Stephen Moutray strongly criticised only one week ago:
"The idea that sectarian groups can unilaterally decide who will walk on a particular road is a case of cultural apartheid. Public space should be shared not divided between different groups."
The DUP seems to be speaking with two voices on this. Should space be shared – in which case a Meánscoil in Drumahoe is welcome – or should it be divided – in which case Orange feet should stay off the Garvaghy Road?
44 comments:
You are quite right that both SF and DUP are being hypocritical here
I'm not a member of the OO, as an atheist I'm not eligible to join. However, attending the parades is a huge part of my cultural experience as an Ulsterman.
So, it's perfectly fine to equate the GAA and Irish language, as manifestations of Gaelic culture, with Orangeism as a manifestation of Ulster Protestant culture.
Those who dismiss the OO as "triumphalist trouble-makers" are the bigots here. It's not a big step from such dismissals to finding burning down Orange halls perfectly acceptable behaviour.
Now this is a thorny question. Initially, I thought, oh, hell, these bigots, what's the problem, geez.
But then, I remembered that nationalists ARE asking (or worse) the OO not to thread their marches down certain streets and through certain neighbourhoods. They're provocations; they're a reminder of deliberate 'otherness' that, while they can't be denied, need not be situated such that they antagonize others.
I suddenly had an uncomfortable sense of parallels here. Okay, there are people proud of being Protestant who march around. Does it HAVE to be in Catholic neighbourhoods? No. But: okay, there are people who want to celebrate the older, Gaelic, predominantly Catholic culture. But do its centres of learning HAVE to be in unionists, Protestant neighbourhoods...?
I don't know. I don't know anything about the logistics of Derry and what might have prompted or perhaps even necessitated the decision. But if there less controversial alternatives, well, I think they ought to be explored in light of the fact that committees are to be formed exactly to decide under what circumstances Orange feet are welcome on Garvaghy Road, et al.
My 2¢ (currently 1.91272¢ US).
I think the earlier comments on this topic all appear to be making what seems to me an unwarranted assumption i.e. that the Orange Order and the Gaelscoileanna are fairly equivalent organisations with broadly similar objectives. Gregory Campbell even takes it as far as, 'an approach to the Orange Order to see if a suitable site becoming available in [Derry's] Creggan estate, would they be interested in providing a boost to cultural education in that area'
Would that education be at primary, secondary or degree level? Perhaps it would be conducted in Ulster Scots - or maybe even in genuine Scottish which is in fact so similar to Irish that perhaps there is room for compromise here.
No, they are not equivalent organisations, nor do they have anything approaching similar objectives. All those banners with 'Derry, Aughrim, Eniskillen and the Boyne' and depictions of a king on a white charger are intended to remind rather than educate. That is also why it is so important to march down streets lived in by the indigenous Irish - what's the fun in only reminding yourselves who won 320 years ago?
Schools however have a single raison d'etre - academic education, which can be delivered in any language at all.
So let's not confuse triumphalism (or am I missing something, is the OO about something quite different and not really about who won?) with genuine education nor pretend that they deserve equivalent responses.
"No, they are not equivalent organisations, nor do they have anything approaching similar objectives."
That's not what we're saying. At least, it's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that people object to whatever it is they object to. It doesn't really matter if you think it's logically justified or not, and you're not likely to talk them out of it. What it's about is recognizing something as an irritant and trying to avoid making it so whenever possible. Can you march somewhere else? Sure, can you put that school somewhere else? Okay. Maybe 50 years from now, no one will care. For now, they do, so rather than insist on "rights" just because someone has a stick up there ass about it -- which pretty much sums up Northern Ireland's problems in a nutshell -- step down and make accommodations till it's no longer an issue. Even as a supporter of the nationalist vision, I suggest it has to work both ways, or unionists are going to do all they can to roll back the tide.
"Those who dismiss the OO as "triumphalist trouble-makers" are the bigots here. It's not a big step from such dismissals to finding burning down Orange halls perfectly acceptable behaviour."
Don't be an ass, Pete. You're basically saying here that no one has a right to object to ANYTHING without being a klepto-psychopath, which is patently absurd.
Just because you used to take a daily dump in a kybo in what was an open field back when you were in grade two doesn't give you the right to shit in my begonias today because they're in the same place and it's your "tradition". Times, places, and conditions change, and you better believe I have the right to object, and will. But the fact that I do is in no way the moral equivalent to bandaging you up in bog roll and setting it alight. Grow up.
Shoot, I sure wish there were an edit button on these things.
I meant "a stick up THEIR ass" previously, of course, and "CRYPTO-psychopath", not "klepto"... though since Pete was concerned about property, maybe it works just as well. :)
'The clear message is that Campbell thinks that Drumahoe is for (bigoted) Protestants only, and that no culturally 'Irish' institution should be allowed.'
'The clear message is that McKenna thinks that the Garvaghy Road is for (bigoted) Catholics only, and that no culturally 'Orange' institution should be allowed.'
I'll look forward to this analysis being forthcoming the next time the issue of Orange Order parades is raised.
I think that the issue here is not about who owns an area, road whatever. The issue is always support. If there is support in the area for the school then build it, if the area supports marches then march. Respect for the local populace and there feelings and aspirations is what is paramount.
Yes, well done equating a bigoted sectarian organisation to the education of our children through the medium of Irish. Well done you!
Anon:
"I'll look forward to this analysis being forthcoming the next time the issue of Orange Order parades is raised."
The obviously corollary here is, then, do you support institutions of any stripe or intent venturing into places where they're considered intrusions and irritants (with everything that that implies for the future harmony of Northern Ireland), or do you support accepting that others see them as such even if you might not and that therefore, other locations for them should be considered in deference to that reality? Really, it's one or the other.
Coll Ciotach:
"I think that the issue here is not about who owns an area, road whatever. The issue is always support. If there is support in the area for the school then build it, if the area supports marches then march. Respect for the local populace and there feelings and aspirations is what is paramount."
I'm inclined to agree. Eventually, I think, we all want to see a Northern Ireland where people can go where they please, where marches really will be about heritage and not upsetting others, where maintaining a heritage that didn't come from Great Britain won't be seen as a challenge. But obviously we're not there yet, so I think extra consideration is still the order of the day.
Paddy Canuck, you make reasonable points and I think you've misunderstood me slightly.
As I said, I enjoy watching the parades and consider Orangeism an important part of my cultural inheritance. To answer NTNA, it's not about some battle 320 years ago, that doesn't enter my thinking, it's about meeting up with people I've not caught up with since a year before, waving at oldtimers (sadly diminishing year by year) that I no longer have occasion to see except when they march past me. I don't think about the "other community" at all, certainly not about rubbing anything in or triumphalism.
And that distates my feelings about parades. I don't like residents' groups that are fronted by republican terrorists with a political agenda and the rent-acrowds bussed in from outside the area to get offended on purpose. I've also little sympathy with parades that skirt nationalist areas but would have zero impact on residents' lives unless they again went out of their way to be inconvenienced (eg Garvaghy Rd).
However, if you take the Lower Ormeau as an example, where residents clearly don't want a parade and are actually physically impacted by it, then I'm all for banning and re-routing. No-one deserves to be trapped in their street by an unwanted demonstartion being forced up a major highway.
Hope that clarifies where I stand on parading.
Also, I wasn't saying that anyone who criticises the OO WOULD burn down their halls. If that was the case, as a previous critic of the Order's behaviour on occasions, I'd be down the garage to get my litre of petrol. However, those who make broad statements that attempt to dismiss the cultural importance of the OO to the wider unionist community and reduce it purely to the status of "triumphalist trouble-makers" offers ammunition to the more extreme elements who would try to use statement such as these as justificatuion for their sectarian attacks on Orange halls.
Who cares. We have bigger problems on the way.
'Yes, well done equating a bigoted sectarian organisation to the education of our children through the medium of Irish. Well done you!'
'Yes, well done equating a language used as a republican tool of cultural aggression with the right of lawful organisations to walk unhindered on a public highway. Well done you!'
A supporter of the Orange Order accusing anyone of cultural aggression is breathtaking.
Commenter Steve Hill, usually of a conservative bent, on a thread on Irish Unity on CiF:
"Can the rest of the UK vote on this?
Because given the dubious moral and political leadership the unionists have provided over the years, this Brit finds it utterly offensive that they claim anything in common with me at all, and I really would rather they buggered off elsewhere."
A bilingual Irish street sign would be entirely morally equivalent to an Orange Order parade. In fact much worse since a parade is twenty minutes and a street sign 365 days a year. Anyone trying to pretend otherwise is themselves a bigot. Look at how the bilingual signs where rightfully forced to be removed from Queens Student's Union due to equality legislation.
A school is more ambiguous. Presumably it would not serve the immediate locals but some people someone nearby, and there are practicalities of siting. It therefore is somewhat more like a church built in the "wrong" area. It's an actual facility, not just a symbol, so the whole issue would have to be looked at in the round.
"A bilingual Irish street sign would be entirely morally equivalent to an Orange Order parade."
What planet are you on?
Grow up and open your mind!
...'this Brit finds it utterly offensive that they claim anything in common with me at all, and I really would rather they buggered off elsewhere."'
But it's amazing how THAT 'Brit' would probably recoil in PC horror if anyone suggested a similar treatment to him for black, Polish or Muslim people living in Great Britain. Oh, how I love the hypocrisy.
"Slender said...
A bilingual Irish street sign would be entirely morally equivalent to an Orange Order parade. In fact much worse"
Irish is a language that has been used for centuries as a medium of communication in Ireland, Scotland, the Isle of Man and in small pockets of Canada. Some bad people support it, some good. Mostly good.
The Orange Order has some bad supporters, some good. But it's not equivalent to a medium of communication. It is a group that was formed in the wake of an 18th Century bout of communal strife, to celebrate an even more divisive bout of 17th Century strife. It was banned for a time by London in the 19th Century by London for initiating civil strife. It remained a source of strife in the 20th Century.
In a violently divided society for thousands of men from the historically richer, more powerful community to take to the streets in an annual celebration of the victory that established the dominance of that community over their underlings is not the same as a fucking street sign.
The whole world knows it. Jackie McDonald knows it. The English are ashamed to see their flag associated with it.
When will hardline Unionists open their eyes and see how the rest of the world perceives them. More to the point, when will they start caring.
Pete:
"it's not about some battle 320 years ago, that doesn't enter my thinking, it's about meeting up with people I've not caught up with since a year before, waving at oldtimers"
So, what, the social norm for you isn't, "hey, I haven't seen you in donkeys' years; what say we go down to The Fiddle and Fart and pound a few?", it's " hey, I haven't seen you in donkeys' years; what say we hit the bricks and alienate Catholics?" Well, that's different, alright...
"I don't like residents' groups that are fronted by republican terrorists with a political agenda and the rent-acrowds bussed in from outside the area... However, if you take the Lower Ormeau as an example... then I'm all for banning and re-routing... Hope that clarifies where I stand on parading."
It's good that you're open to the idea of rerouting but you're still exhibiting a double standard. You're still making it all about nationalist whining and have nothing to say about the deeper intentions behind parading... you want to stop at, "oh, they're just good lads who wanna to get together for some back-slapping and craic". Sure. And for you to mention "bussing" is the height of irony. Protestants are right to complain when groups are brought in to buttress the objections of nationalist areas... but apparently Catholics in Derry and Tyrone aren't supposed to mind when bigoted, bowler-wearing buffoons (sorry, I mean "terrorists"; isn't that what we call anyone we don't agree with in Northern Ireland who's in any way vaguely self-empowering? I'm learning so much from you...) are bussed in from Belfast, Portadown, and even Glasgow to bang drums with "PUCK THE FOPE" banners on them up and down their streets every bloody summer. Stop and think about it for a second.
"...as a previous critic of the Order's behaviour on occasions, I'd be down the garage to get my litre of petrol."
If a few more Protestants would do that... ah, but I digress. :)
Pete:
"those who make broad statements that attempt to dismiss the cultural importance of the OO to the wider unionist community and reduce it purely to the status of "triumphalist trouble-makers" offers ammunition to the more extreme elements"
Well, I'll ask it. Why does the Orange Order have to exist at all, Pete? Isn't it enough to belong to, say, the Larne Methodist Church? Or St. Michael's Anglican Church? Or Big Bob's Presbyterian Church of Oak Street and Car Wash? Don't those count as "communities"? If the OO is NOT about "triumphalist trouble-making", since long before Partition, then what is it? And why has it largely faded from existence in every other part of the English-speaking world where people have gotten beyond a sectarian basis for living, working, and governing?
Anon:
'Yes, well done equating a language used as a republican tool of cultural aggression with the right of lawful organisations to walk unhindered on a public highway. Well done you!'
Oh, yeah. Speaking Gaelic... whoa, careful, you could put somebody's eye out... much more "aggressive", that, than stopping traffic and public life while you march through someone's neighbourhood carrying banners about battles that meant they and their ancestors lost the vote, property, good jobs, education, self-governance, and even their language and religion, all while you tootle out the sweet sounds of "Croppies Lie Down". "Well done"? That must describe the smoldering remnants of any human empathy you may have once had...
Slender:
"A bilingual Irish street sign would be entirely morally equivalent to an Orange Order parade."
No, it would not. I live in a place with bilingual street signs, at least on the provincial highways. They serve two purposes: to inform people who don't read English, and, implicitly, TO LET THEM KNOW THEY ARE ENTIRELY WELCOME AND RESPECTED HERE. It does not diminish me in any regard to acknowledge them and their rights, and it is in NO way the same as them marching through my neighbourhood, making a racket, and reminding me of some military tragedy and the fact that they hold me in utter contempt.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8520743.stm
'Speaking Gaelic... whoa, careful, you could put somebody's eye out.'
Whoa, republicans have carried out far worse bodily mutilations than that. And they still intend to use Irish as a tool of cultural aggression.
'than stopping traffic and public life..'
Whereas IRA bombs both stopped traffic and TOOK human life, so I don't think republicans have any comeback on that score.
'That must describe the smoldering remnants of any human empathy.'
I have no empathy or any other human emotion for those who vote for IRA terrorists at the ballot box.
"So, what, the social norm for you isn't, "hey, I haven't seen you in donkeys' years; what say we go down to The Fiddle and Fart and pound a few?", it's " hey, I haven't seen you in donkeys' years; what say we hit the bricks and alienate Catholics?" Well, that's different, alright..."
Do you actualy read what anyone else posts, Paddy C? I've explained that I don't march, that I attend the parades with no view towards triumplhalism and that I view Orange demonstrations as an importany part of my unionist culture.
Therefore you conclude that I hit the bricks to alienate Catholics as opposed to meeting old friends down the pub instead - how does that work?
Orange parades have been part and parcel of unionist cultural life for over 200 years. But you'd prefer it if the OO disbanded and Protestants burned down their halls. And you then bleat about a lack of tolerance of Ireland's Gaelic culture!!
As has been made entirely clear by a number of posters, Gaelic is not the first language of anyone in Northern Ireland, so your comparisons with Quebecois is irrelevant at best and beyond mischievious at worst.
Any attempt to foist Gaelic into the public life of Northern Ireland, be it through schools, street signs or whatever, is a political statement. Quit pretending it isn't and you might be taken more seriously. A private decision from an Irish nationalist to learn Gaelic or to celbrate Gaelic culture is, of course, entirely different and there appear ample opportunities to do so should anyone desire.
To Paddy Canuck:
Well said. On all counts.
Street signs. Have you no interest where most of the Northern place-names come form, what their meanings are? Of course you don't because anything remotely Irish is threatening to your culture.
Anon:
"Whoa, republicans have carried out far worse bodily mutilations than that."
Which has exactly what to do with speaking Gaelic and public spending to expand the knowledge of it?
"Whereas IRA bombs both stopped traffic and TOOK human life"
Which has exactly what to do with speaking Gaelic and public spending to expand the knowledge of it?
"I have no empathy or any other human emotion--"
Yeah, save your breath; you can probably stop right there.
Pete:
"I've explained that I don't march, that I attend the parades"
What's the difference, ultimately? Oh yeah... you're just one of those folks who gets "bussed in", I guess. Jeez, someone around here was just bitching about that kind of thing... who was it again?
"Therefore you conclude that I hit the bricks to alienate Catholics as opposed to meeting old friends down the pub instead - how does that work?"
Apparently not as well as it used to; there's a parades commission these days.
"But you'd prefer it if the OO disbanded and Protestants burned down their halls. And you then bleat about a lack of tolerance of Ireland's Gaelic culture!!"
Well, I'll tell you what, Pete. I live in a really tolerant place, actually, and what you just described is pretty much exactly what's happened here since WWI. The majority of my great-grandparents were, in fact, Protestants; and living where I do, it's a virtual certainty I've got the OO in the woodpile... but no one in my family's been in it in over a hundred years. So what you've just described would be lovely, because it would mean Protestants there had grown up, just like they have here. And given that it's happened pretty much everywhere BUT Northern Ireland, it's hardly the outlandish idea you seem to imagine it to be.
Pete:
"As has been made entirely clear by a number of posters, Gaelic is not the first language of anyone in Northern Ireland, so your comparisons with Quebecois is irrelevant"
Yeah, and I also mentioned the public spending on French signage, education, and services in Ontario, which is barely 5% French-speaking... hardly a "majority". Try to keep up.
"Any attempt to foist Gaelic into the public life of Northern Ireland, be it through schools, street signs or whatever, is a political statement."
So what? AND? What ISN'T? Sticking a Union Jack on any public flagpole is a political statement, but everybody's taxes are expected to pay for that, whether they feel well-served by that statement or not. Well, what's sauce for the goose...
"peteram79 said...
Do you actualy read what anyone else posts, Paddy C? I've explained that I don't march, that I attend the parades with no view towards triumplhalism and that I view Orange demonstrations as an importany part of my unionist culture."
Calling something culture doesn't make it any more or any less acceptable. Take a dander through the Anthropology section of the main library in Queen's. The shelves are sagging with thousands of books that describe barbaric cultural practices that thankfully are confined to the history books.
Your first hand experience of the marching season might be kids with facepaint and balloons, but there's a lot more to it than that and you know it. If you honestly can't see why the kick the pope, up to our necks in fenian blood, tricolour burning side of Orangeism is considered grotesque by the rest of the civilised world, you're not trying very hard. If you don't realise that your Catholic neighbours know full well the marches celebrate events that ensured their subservience for years, and aren't that thrilled to be reminded of this, well I'll let you into a secret: they do.
Northern Ireland is still divided. Celebrating warfare between the tribes in a divided society will NEVER help heal that divide. Not one single iota. If you know this and don't care, and continue your celebrations regardless of the offence you cause, you are complicit in the continuation of the division.
It's a spiteful hate-ridden tradition and it belongs in the past.
'you can probably stop right there.'
No, the additional clause concerning my opinion on IRA supporting scum is essential to this argument.
Irish is a tool of Irish republicanism. Until such time as it ceases to be a tool of Irish republicanism it will be resisted by Unionism.
Sorry if that's too difficult for you to comprehend.
The Orange Order have a legal right to exist and a right to marches in most areas across the north. No one in Ireland disputes this.
They don't, however, have a right to pretend the entire troubles of the north of Ireland don't exist and therefore go marching down catholic nationalist areas where they are not wanted.
It's either wilful stupidity on behalf of the OO or naked troublemaking. It's hard to know which.
As for Orange parades being a good place to meet old buddies, well there's no doubt that's true. But sure KKK members could say the same thing when they meet up for their annual orgies in Alabama. You can't simply totally ignore the social trouble an organisation causes by certain actions because you enjoy meeting old friends at a parade.
"Irish is a tool of Irish republicanism."
Actually, it's a language; one that predates both English and republicanism in Ireland. It's held on by the skin of its teeth into a modern age where it's now an official language across the European Union, but amazingly, not in all of its home ground.
"Until such time as it ceases to be a tool of Irish republicanism it will be resisted by Unionism."
Well, given that you're the one who's defining it as such, that essentially means it always will be that, because it will suit you to say so till they stick in the ground. So you've pretty much just sidelined yourself from any equation or discussion of the future of Ireland. You're already locked in the past, and you yourself have thrown away the key.
I'm pretty SURE that's too complicated for YOU to understand... but others here will know what I mean.
"As for Orange parades being a good place to meet old buddies, well there's no doubt that's true. But sure KKK members could say the same thing when they meet up for their annual orgies in Alabama."
I didn't want to be the one to say it, but yeah. Even this far north, I've seen Confederate flags on car bumpers with the eye-rolling apology "HERITAGE NOT HATE". Yeah, sure; go peddle it on any street corner in Harlem and see who's buying. Or maybe on the Falls Road.
So basically what we can conclude is is outlined in the conversation below:
The Orange Order needs to be banned, despite the fact that it draws hundreds and thousands of spectators to its increasingly trouble-free demonstrations.
>But isn't this traditional?
It used to be traditonal in other places where Orangeism is less important now, then it stopped, so it has to stop in Northern Ireland too.
>Oh right.But why?
Because the Cafflicks know it's all about keeping them in their place and reminding them who's boss.
>Really? But that's not what I think?
Doesn't matter, they just know that, deep down, you hate them and are comparable to the KKK
>Oh dear. What about the Irish language?
It's perfectly fine, because it's culture
>But why is it always pushed by staunch republicans in a way that appears designed to cause maximum offence to unioinists?
Don't be silly, it's only a language, you hater. It struggled to survive 800 years of Anglo oppression and now you want to kill it off to return to the Protestant Ascendancy.
>Whoops. But don't just a few people speak it, while Scum Feiners learn (badly) a couple of words purely to try to annoy DUPers?
It doesn't matter that Orangeism is relevant to far far more people than the Irish language. One isn't cultural, the other is BECAUSE WE SAY SO. And if you disagree you hate all things Gaelic and want to lynch Catholics.
>But I don't mind people learning Irish in their own time when it doesn't cost money, I support rerouting of some Orange marches and I don't even vote DUP.
Nonsense, you don't exist and are just pretending. Throw off your cloak and reveal yourself to be the Grand Orange Wizard and Cafflick hater we know you truly are.
Peter,
Wallowing in self pity doesn't alter the facts. The OO are entitled to their marches and their bonfires. But in the 21st century, post GFA, they shouldn't try to demand to go down routes they aren't welcome.
Who said they can't march in their own areas or in city centres like Belfast?
And comparing the OO to the Irish language is just scraping the barrel. Do Irish language enthusiasts want to hold marches down Protestant areas?
Pete:
But isn't this traditional?
Sure, just like slavery, segregation, and spousal abuse. Most change has to overcome appeals to "tradition".
Oh right.But why?
Because people used to wielding a stick with a distant shitty end typically get off on it and hypocritically wouldn't want to end up on the other end of it so they refuse to put it down lest someone else pick it up. Holding a wolf by the ears, etc., etc.
Really? But that's not what I think?
Yeah. Sure you don't. Bilingual street signs are nothing more than someone sticking it to you, but you don't hate THEMUNS; noooo.
Oh dear. What about the Irish language?
The day it goes marching down your street reminding you that hundreds of thousands STILL think it was right for you to work menial for starvation wages so you had to live 15 to a broom closet while legally and extralegally deprived of the means to vote for something better, you'll be right to complain. Till then, keep your powder dry.
But why is it always pushed by staunch republicans in a way that appears designed to cause maximum offence to unioinists?
Because any attempt by nationalists or Catholics, no matter how trivial, to better their lot or make NI more comfortable for themselves has offended unionists for hundreds and hundreds of years.
Whoops. But don't just a few people speak it, while Scum Feiners learn (badly) a couple of words purely to try to annoy DUPers?
It doesn't matter that an Irish identity is relevant to far, far more people than an Orange one; the DUP et al. long ago carved off what they thought was a manageable minority-as-majority chunk, and any indication that's going by the boards and things are gonna change -- like people saying funny words -- is all it takes to send them into puerile tantrums and cry-gasms.
But I don't mind people learning Irish in their own time when it doesn't cost money, I support rerouting of some Orange marches and I don't even vote DUP.
Hey, that's mighty white of you. What else don't you mind? That they watch TV, sing along with Mitch, eat peas off a knife? If the UK is sporting its other languages on signs all over the country and you figure you're a good Briton, isn't it your patriotic duty to reach into your pocket and do likewise, just like the folks in Cornwall and Scotland and Man and the Channel Islands?
Or are you different from other Britons because... after all... you're Irish? :)
'So you've pretty much just sidelined yourself from any equation or discussion of the future of Ireland. You're already locked in the past, and you yourself have thrown away the key.'
I have no interest in the future of Ireland. I only have interest in the future of Northern Ireland - a part of the United Kingdom. Irish is a language; Arbeit Macht Frei are three words in the German language - so what?. I'll tell you. Language ceases to be just words when it is highjacked by scum for propagandistic purposes.
When Sinn Fein/IRA stop using the language as a tool to antagonise the overwhelming majority in NI who speak nothing other than English, and when Sinn Fein/IRA stop demanding the removal of those symbols and cultural traits that reflect the reality of NI's constitutional position, then maybe they'll have the right to lecture others. Till then....foc il leat (hope the Irish was accurate).
Godwin's Law:
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."
"I have no interest in the future of Ireland. I only have interest in the future of Northern Ireland"
You have no idea how unutterably insane that sounds, do you? None at all... :D
"Arbeit Macht Frei are three words in the German language - so what?."
So if Germany had invaded in 1940 and still held six counties centred around, oh, Essex, say, and stuffed them full of good ol' boys from the Black Forest... would you like the folks there to be able to still speak English if they liked...?
"Language ceases to be just words when it is highjacked by scum for propagandistic purposes."
What, you're going to condemn the language I speak just because of the shitty uses Paisley and Craigavon put it to? I object, sir; strenuously.
"When Sinn Fein/IRA stop using the language as a tool to antagonise the overwhelming majority in NI"
By doing what, exactly? Merely SPEAKING it? If that's all it takes to upset you, that's YOUR shortcoming, not theirs.
""As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1.""
It's best to wait as long as you can for full effect. :)
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