Thursday 18 February 2010

McDonald breaks some eggs

This blog is no supporter of the UDA, its members, methods, history or very existence. But in terms of ultra-unionism its credentials are usually respected by other unionists. No-one suspects it of softness or selling out, and while Lundies have been sought high and low they have rarely been found in the UDA.

Which makes it all the more embarrassing for the DUP that the leader of the UDA, Jackie McDonald, has just argued strongly against the position that the DUP has adopted on the issue of Orange marches:

"People used to walk down roads where Protestants lived. Now they want to walk down the same road where nationalists live. It might be tradition and it might be culture, but why would you?"
Why indeed? But McDonald does not leave it at the level of a rhetorical question – he goes on to give the answer that all nationalists know, but most unionists deny:
"What I’ve seen at Garvaghy Road before, or the Ormeau Road – once they got down the road, it was triumphalism straight out. That’s not the reason to walk down the road. That wasn’t the reason they walked down the road 30 years ago, or 50 years ago or 100 years ago. But they’ve turned it round. They’re not walking down the same road for the same reason. It’s to get one up on the other community, or being there because the other community says you can’t be."
It will be interesting to see how the DUP – wrapped in their orange bannerettes – react to that. The work of the Hillsborough Agreement working group on parades is not yet finished, and the leader of the unionists paramilitary wing has effectively come out and agreed with the nationalist position. Can Robinson now use a failure to agree an 'orange-friendly' outcome of the working group to delay the transfer of policing and justice again?

McDonald's statements, made during a period of high-pressure talks on the parading issue, cannot not have been innocent. He knew he was taking the legs out from under the DUP – the question is why he did it.

He half-answers the question himself, saying that he believes that the emphasis now should be on community building, even though that is a very long-term task. Could it be that the paramilitaries in the unionist community are actually more responsible and conciliatory than their politicians? If so, McDonald is giving a very clear message to the DUP – that they do not have the support of the men in berets and dark glasses.

34 comments:

Anonymous said...

Fair play Mr McDonald. Can't say I'm a fan of the UDA but if it's going to exist I'm glad he's at the helm.

Anonymous said...

When are these people gonna stop this bickerin and have a look at the big picture and the real enemy thats on our shores and on our streets. Why will no one talk about the immigration problem thats about to destroy our country, for both sides of the community. Why are potiticians afraid to mention it. Of course it doesnt affect the middle classes, they are not the ones going without, the can afford to pay for education, houses, health care and nursery places, its the working classes on both sides that are being short changed.
Of course the UUP have just announced their new canditate to run for Iris Robinson's seat. Watched him being interviewed. Well well, sure isnt he just a nice middle class man from the leafy east belfast suburbs. I have to asked then what does he have in common with the working classes. Nowt I would think. The well of dont have a clue about the real problems of the working classes and the poor.

Anonymous said...

Kieron says:

Very brave statement, may be followed by a clarification or a retraction.

Paddy Canuck said...

Anon:

"Why will no one talk about the immigration problem thats about to destroy our country"

God almighty, do you think you could let Northern Ireland get over its current bout of internecine hatred before you go stirring up the next one? One pogrom at a time, please.

peteram79 said...

"If so, McDonald is giving a very clear message to the DUP – that they do not have the support of the men in berets and dark glasses."

Fortunately, no major NI unionist party has ever needed the support of the scum in the berets and dark glasses. It's a great pity the same can't be said for all nationalist parties.

annieann said...

What's to clarify Kieron? I am merely stating my opinion and im quite sure its not just my opinion. The people are worried about the immigration, they are worried about their jobs, houses, mortgages and their children's education. Health services are going down the tubes among other things, we simply cannot afford to maintain and support financially the thousands from abroad, who have already arrived and the rest who are on their way.

bangordub said...

"Kieron says:

Very brave statement, may be followed by a clarification or a retraction."


Already has Kieron,
David Vance on Nolan this morning blowing a gasket...........
Interesting to note who stays quiet on this though.
I think it's definitley a positive sign to see some political maturity from unionism though, even if its not from a politician!

Anonymous said...

PeteRam79/Andy:

UUUC needed them for the UWCS, forget that one did ye?

thedissenter said...

McDonald's statement will probably go down well on the Republic's golf courses.

Anonymous said...

Why stir up a new one? Stop immigration altogether.

Anonymous said...

peteram79 said...

"Fortunately, no major NI unionist party has ever needed the support of the scum in the berets and dark glasses. "

Not post partition, anyway. But then at various times post partition, they had the world's most heavily armed police force to call on. And one of the world's best armies, the legal paramilitaries of the B Specials/UDR, and the Special Powers Act, too- envy of South Africa's Apartheid regime no less (praise indeed.) So they really didn't need the men in dark glasses; didn't stop them flirting with Vanguard and Ulster Resistance though.

Despite all this legal muscle, the loyalist paramilitaries had higher membership than the republicans throughout the troubles. I wonder who all those tens of thousands of UDA men were voting for.

Anonymous said...

Most UDA and UVF men vote for either UUP or DUP (if they can be bothered to vote at all). But some are now voting for TUV. Almost none vote for The PUP (even The UVF orientated ones). In this, they tend to reflect the voting patterns of their friends and neighbours.

There is increasing dislocation between the so called leadership of these two groups and the rank and file. Where this might lead, I have no idea.

Paddy Canuck said...

Pete:

"Fortunately, no major NI unionist party has ever needed the support of the scum in the berets and dark glasses."

Yeah, sure, Pete. All those times Paisley stood on balconies like an Irish Mussolini and incited thugs to go riot and kill taigs by telling them they shouldn't riot and kill taigs DESPITE having the following justifications for doing so (whereupon he would haul out lists that would hit the floor still unrolling...), unionist parties weren't depending on anonymous mobs and terrorism to hold onto their deathgrip on exclusive power in Northern Ireland, noooooooooooooo...

hoboroad said...

http://www.inc.ie/duped.html

Anonymous said...

"Fortunately, no major NI unionist party has ever needed the support of the scum in the berets and dark glasses. It's a great pity the same can't be said for all nationalist parties."
19 February 2010 13:14

Dont think so!
You dont known your own recent history. Your case is built on sand just like Unionism!
Good on you hoboroad

annieann said...

MMM With respect Paddy i am not trying to stir up hatred or anything else for that matter. I am merely stating what the people here are feeling. Its a fact they feel, they are being put second behind outsiders who have now decided to arrive here now the troubles are over and help themselves to all that is free. Both sections of the divide here have worries and its understandable. A bit of research would not go amis.

peteram79 said...

Oh, I love it.

They are all here:
1912
The British Army and the B Specials are the same as the IRA
The UWC
Ulster Resistance
Loyalist terrorists voted UUP/DUP
Paisley told them to do it

All the attempts to try to create moral equivalence between the consistent unionist rejection of parties with their own private murder wing and the nationalist community's enthusiastic embrace of brutal, terrorist scum posing as politicians.

I just hope it helps you sleep at night. I think of the victims of Greysteel or Loughisland and their poor families and conclude that a vote for the PUP or the UPRG would be morally reprehensible. It seems that the people of West Belfast, for example, can't think of those who died or were left without loved ones on Bloody Friday or at La Mon before they vote not just for the organisation that carried them out but for the very man who signed off on both of these atrocities.

Different strokes for different folks, I guess

Anonymous said...

Sinn Fein were a small party during the IRA campaign. It was Sinn Fein who persuaded the IRA to ceasefire, and embrace political and demographic means. It is no coincidence that the Sinn Fein vote increased after they that. But of course don't let that get in your way.

Paddy Canuck said...

Annieann:

"Its a fact they feel, they are being put second behind outsiders who have now decided to arrive here now the troubles are over and help themselves to all that is free."

I think it's a mischaracterization of what they're doing. They're coming for economic opportunities they didn't have at home. Do you know which nation is most famous for that? The Irish. I challenge you to name any other nationality in the world whose diaspora is larger by a factor of TEN, or more, than the population of its source country. Immigration has been a boon to the Irish; it's supplied a safety valve for overpopulation at home and created a huge, passionate diaspora that, let's be honest, has been an important factor in helping Ireland, north and south, for generations... particularly in ameliorating things in the north in the last couple of generations. Without immigration, what would the Irish of the world be? Fifty million people standing on each other's shoulders and starving to death on an island about the size of Lake Superior, instead of a proud, prosperous, worldwide cultural phenomenon; mother of presidents and prime ministers. Well, now that Ireland itself is on its feet (a bit shakily at the moment, I realize, but the trend is still good), isn't it time Ireland paid it forward? I think so, and it's one of the things that makes me most proud to claim an Irish heritage and citizenship. Ireland is a SUCCESS; people want to be there! Stop making that a problem and celebrate! After generation upon generation of strife, poverty, and struggle, IRELAND HAS ARRIVED.

Paddy Canuck said...

Pete:

"the nationalist community's enthusiastic embrace of brutal, terrorist scum posing as politicians."

Wait, nationalists don't support Paisley; what are you talking about? You're drunk, boy. :)

Paddy Canuck said...

Pete:

"All the attempts to try to create moral equivalence between the consistent unionist rejection of parties with their own private murder wing and the nationalist community's enthusiastic embrace of brutal, terrorist scum posing as politicians."

Quack quack quack quack... Yeah, speaking of moral equivalents, hey, Pete: have you dug up any proof of that contention you made that places in Northern Ireland with Catholic majorities stick it to the Proddies in housing and jobs? We're still waiting to see that.

peteram79 said...

Well done, Paddy C, just you continue dodging the elephant in the room.

You find me one person who has lost a loved one due to a murder that Paisley as a senior member of a terrorist scum organisation signed off on and I'll maybe listen to your crap.

Personally, I know people who have lost loved ones in operations personally signed off by Mssrs Adams and McGuinness.

So you can keep your comments about sobriety to the comfort of your armchair in Canada, and I'll continue to hold every last one of you who support murderous scum in total and utter contempt.

Poor little Scum Fein, they were a powerless bystander while the IRA were murdering people, but by their courage they managed to turn the nasty men away from violence and that's why we vote for them now. A ridiculous and contemptible attempt to cover your own arse because you're addicted to voting for scum who's only agenda is naked anti-unioinst sectarian bigotry at the point of a gun, either directly or through their convenient "dissident wings"

Horseman said...

peteram79,

Look, I really don't like doing this, but one of your posts was potentially libellois, so I cannot allow it to be displayed in full.

Here it is, though, with the libellous buit removed. If you want to re-post it yourself, please do, but can the unprovable (but actionable) accusations:

"Posted by peteram79:

Well done, Paddy C, just you continue dodging the elephant in the room.

You find me one person who has lost a loved one due to a murder that Paisley as a senior member of a terrorist scum organisation signed off on and I'll maybe listen to your crap.

Personally, I know people who have lost loved ones in operations personally signed off by [redacted].

So you can keep your comments about sobriety to the comfort of your armchair in Canada, and I'll continue to hold every last one of you who support murderous scum in total and utter contempt.

Poor little Scum Fein, they were a powerless bystander while the IRA were murdering people, but by their courage they managed to turn the nasty men away from violence and that's why we vote for them now. A ridiculous and contemptible attempt to cover your own arse because you're addicted to voting for scum who's only agenda is naked anti-unioinst sectarian bigotry at the point of a gun, either directly or through their convenient "dissident wings" "

Anonymous said...

Pete has lost his case, hands down.

Just like many Unionists!

He need to grow up.

Anonymous said...

I think it's fair to say that even whilst PIRA were active, SF achieved up to a third of The Nationalist vote, suggesting that about a third of NI Nationalists had some sympathy for PIRA violence. Of course, more Nationalists came to vote for them following The PIRA cease fire, suggesting that they weren't that bothered by PIRA's campaign of violence.

By the way, PIRA were always seen as the dominant party even when SF were standing for elections - PIRA documentation shows this.

I doubt SF/IRA had any sort of epiphany regarding violence leading to their conditional surrender - unless it was a moral collapse under the pressure of Loyalist attacks. Add in to this the age of their leadership and the number of state agents operating at all levels within SF/IRA and the outcome was to a degree predictable.

The assembly was created to secure peace within NI in the long term (even if it's precise nature changes from time to time).

Paddy Canuck said...

"Personally, I know people who have lost loved ones in operations personally signed off by [redacted]."

Hearsay Pete strikes again! :) Phantom bigoted Catholic councils, hundreds of blase phantom Irish southerners, and now the phantom victims of Mr. Redacted. Who will his invisible bullets fell next?

Anonymous said...

Why does saying "I love it, they're all here" lessen the significance of the instances where Unionists supported murder?

Probably for the same reason taking up arms to defy the democratic will of the majority of Ireland, and the Westminster, to set up N.I. wasn't undemocratic. But when the other side tried the same trick it was. Hypocrisy, in other words.

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said...

I think it's fair to say that even whilst PIRA were active, SF achieved up to a third of The Nationalist vote, suggesting that about a third of NI Nationalists had some sympathy for PIRA violence."

I'm old enough to remember the UUP and DUP on the news during the troubles, and they were no pacifists.

It's fair to say they weren't exactly screaming to have the B-Specials disbanded when they were getting drunk and bursting into innocent taig's homes to beat them to death in front of their kids. Or the UDR when they were blowing up pop groups at the border.

peteram79 said...

Robert Gibson 45 yrs married with 5 children Ulsterbus driver, Protestant and a Civilian
William Kenneth Crothers 15 yrs of age single Ulsterbus employee, Protestant and a Civilian
William Irvine 18 yrs single Ulsterbus employee, Protestant and a Civilian
Thomas Killops 39 yrs married Ulsterbus employee, Protestant and a Civilian
Stephen Cooper 32 yrs Soldier with the Royal Corps of Transport, 32 Squadron
Philip J. Price 27 yrs Soldier Welsh Guards
Margaret O'Hare 37 yrs mother of seven children, Catholic and Civilian
Stephen Parker 14 yrs old school boy, the youngest, Protestant and Civilian
Brigid Murray 65 yrs, Catholic and Civilian

Thomas Neeson 52 yrs old married with three children car salesman Civilian
Dorothy Nelson 35 yrs married with two children Civilian
Gordon Crothers 30 yrs old married with one child Civilian
Joan Crothers 26 yrs married one child Civilian
Ian McCracken 25 yrs old married Civilian
Elizabeth McCracken 25 yrs old Civilian
Sandra Morris 27 yrs old married with three children Civilian
Sarah Wilson Cooper 62 yrs old married with children Civilian
Christine Lockhart 32 yrs old married and a Civilian
Daniel Magill married Civilian Carol Mills27 yrs old married Civilian
Paul Nelson 37 yrs married with two children Civilian
Carol Mills 27 yrs married Civilian


Do you want to show some shred of decency, PaddyC, and apologise for referring to any of the above as phantom victims of Mr Redacted?

Paddy Canuck said...

Personal friends of yours one and all, as advertised, are they, Pete...?

Paddy Canuck said...

So what is your point, exactly, Pete? That people have died in the Troubles? YOU DON’T SAY. And why do you suppose that is? It couldn’t have anything to do with the actions of Reverend [Redacted] and Lord [Redacted], Constable [Redacted] and Major [Redacted] and Corporal [Redacted] and all the way back to Lord Protector [Redacted], could it?

Do you know why there was a Mr. [Redacted] and guys like him for 35 years, Pete? Because through the 60s, they watched their friends and relatives, marching peacefully for their rights, first being stoned, then gassed and truncheoned, and finally shot dead in the streets by people who demanded they play by the rules while refusing to be bound by them themselves. It was made abundantly clear to them that to achieve equality – hell, just to survive and keep marauders out of their homes – they had to meet force with force. There was no other way left open to them. As long as Catholics remained mere marching sheep, they were nothing but fodder for Protestant wolves, and the British didn’t give a good goddamn what those wolves did in a little corner of another island across the sea, provided it stayed over there. As long as Catholics were the only people who had to feel fear in Northern Ireland, nothing was going to change, and it would still be the same stinking apartheid statelet it was till 1972 today if it had. Only when people like you had to feel fear did change begin to come. People like Mr. [Redacted] made that change, and unionist intransigence assured that was the only way it was going to happen -- and whether you care to admit it or not, deep down, you all know that’s true. And if the things that Mr. [Redacted] did were horrible and violent, it shouldn’t have had to have come to that, but it did have to, because every other avenue was brutally closed. The rest of humanity, the rest of your countrymen (be they Irish or British in your eyes) knows what unionists did for seventy years was wrong, and that’s why they’ve demanded you sit at the table and work it out.

And that’s why there’s finally some peace in the place, and no more need for lists like yours, and men like Mr. [Redacted] can finally be the kind of men people like you should have let them be in the first place.

Anonymous said...

Unionists who dwell on the past and list acts perpetrated by the Irish against the British are starting an argument that the Irish will be able to continue long after their list of grievances is exhausted. One they'll lose, in other words.

Time to focus on the future.

Anonymous said...

Hi Paddy. Actually i am not speaking about the immigrants who came here and to Britain many years ago after the war to help to rebuild the country. I am speaking about the ones who, now that the troubles are over think its a free ride to make their way here and live of the tax payer and believe me there are many of them. The truth is we cannot afford to keep them and their offspring and furthermore why should we the tax payer have to work and pay pay pay so that thousand of foreigners can live of us and take our services and cause long waiting lists for our education health jobs and housing. Thats the reality of the situation. We are a joke to them its as simple as that.
Regards
Annieann

Anonymous said...

Hi Paddy, sorry i am just realising your a Canadian and not Irish. I supposed its completely different sitting in Canada reading about our history and the troubles than actually living through it, either in the North or South.
Regards
Annieann