Sunday 21 February 2010

Elliott’s border fence

The UUP’s Tom Elliott wants the border to be sealed off as much as possible. He is complaining that there are plans to build bridges across the border between Caledon (Tyrone) and Glaslough (Monaghan):

Cross border bridges are unnecessary”, says Elliott, but oddly:

“… approach roads to and from these new bridges were not capable of carrying the amount of traffic that will escalate and lead to bottle necks and traffic hold ups on the narrow minor roads in the vicinity …”
Um, does that not actually mean that the bridges are necessary, and in fact, improved approach roads are also necessary?

Not to Mr Elliott, of course. The correct course of action for him is:

“… to put in place structures which would facilitate local users with light vehicles only and also accommodate people using the roads for leisure purposes. Restrictions should be put in place to prevent heavy lorries from using these routes”.
So, it seems that Elliott sees cross-border traffic as being only ‘light’ and ‘leisurely’ – footbridges, perhaps. The last thing he wants is actual commercial traffic, the kind that might lead to economic development and increasing affluence.

Of course, a more cynical person might question Elliott’s motives. A cynical person might wonder if Elliott is trying, Canute-like, to hold back the tide of cross-border business and economic development. Because, of course, if business ignores the border – as it should – then the political border starts to look even more ridiculous. If businesses north and south can trade as easily with each other as with other parts of their respective jurisdictions, then the irrationality of the unionists’ border becomes glaringly obvious. And when the irrationality of the border is clear to everyone, it won’t be long before the irrationality of the unionist philosophy is equally obvious to everyone. Mr Elliott would much prefer a nice border fence, or an Israeli-style wall, so that north means north and south means south, and ne’er the twain shall meet.

Elliott neatly sums up the illogically of his own position:

“I still consider the construction of these two bridges to be ill considered … and instead of building bridges could hamper good community relations and cross border co-operation in the area."
So building bridges doesn’t … um …, build bridges. Unionism, you’ve got to love it.

32 comments:

Anonymous said...

Perhaps Canada and The US should become one state given how much they trade.

You should start a blog on it Horseman! Give us all another good laugh.

Paddy Canuck said...

"Perhaps Canada and The US should become one state given how much they trade."

I was actually in favour of that for a long time when I was younger. But curiously, while the two sections of Ireland have been becoming more alike and finding their commonalities, sort of the opposite has been happening in North America. Our political cultures seem to have flipflopped, and US -- especially the south -- has grown deeply conservative, isolationist and belligerent (a strange combination last mastered effectively by imperial Japan), and they've completely taken the belt off economically and let themselves go. Their annual deficits are now what their DEBT was when I was in university. Finally, we could not possibly be more at odds on the issue of health care and the essential nature of the welfare state, and everything that implies about quality of living and regard for the individual. I won't even get started on the fetishization of the Second Amendment.

We have a lot in common, but until the fever breaks and they're not obsessed with being and staying #1, but simply being a good and decent place to live again, it's not in the cards. Once they've stepped down from empire like the British had to in the 50s and 60s, we might find enough common ground to start... building bridges. :)

Ireland's already way ahead of us. Keep going.

New times, New approach said...

The UUP is dead in the water. Their abortive attempt to enter some vague liaison with the Conservatives has perished and looks like it could well lose them their only Westminster MP, probably the only high achieving and very well educated one they have had since Enoch Powell. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, to lose one is unfortunate, to lose two smacks of carelessness.
It has become clear to them that they are not going to improve their representation either here or in London by continuing to plough the same political furrow that has donated the majority of their former vote to the DUP and whatever they have left is now at threat from the TUV.
This leaves them with the pickle of whether to grasp a very stinging nettle and pursue a moderate middle-class Catholic vote or to try to out-DUP the DUP. And, unfortunately, that's an easy choice for them.
We could call it the 'Great Wall of Tyrone' and install Border Guards along it. Smart thinking, Tom. Let's see the other try to top that one!

peteram79 said...

"while the two sections of Ireland have been becoming more alike and finding their commonalities"

I guess that's maybe what you want to think, Paddy C, but I'm afraid you're pretty inaccurate here.

The Republic of Ireland and nationalist/republican Northern Ireland have diverged massively over the last 30 years, to the extent that your average 25 year old southerner would probably struggle to identify any common feeling with his boder-obsessed northern neighbour.

The horrible truth for northern republicans is that their attitude has most in common with a northern loyalist, both hung up on an issue that really doesn't matter to anyone else on either of the British Isles any more, both stuck in a zero sum game of petty point scoring and minor "victories" over the other side in a conflict that can't be resolved to either side's satisfaction, while everyone else gets on with their day-to-day business

Anonymous said...

What a ridiculous comparison between Canada and the USA and Ireland's flimsy border.

Do nearly half of Canadians regard themselves as Americans and want a unified state with the US?

No, so increase your logic before making stupid comparisons.

Paddy Canuck said...

Pete:

"your average 25 year old southerner would probably struggle to identify any common feeling with his boder-obsessed northern neighbour."

When that kid was born, there were no cross-border institutions, people were still being killed on weekly basis in sectarian violence by fully-armed paramilitary groups (who have all disarmed in the past five years to the utter astonishment of the world), Dublin had no say in the governing of Northern Ireland, and people could expect to be stopped while crossing the border at least some of the time. In light of all this, how can you possibly say that Ireland hasn't grown more cohesive, simply because -- thanks to all this and more -- Northern Ireland isn't on the minds and lips of everyone in the south on an hourly basis?

Paddy Canuck said...

"Do nearly half of Canadians regard themselves as Americans and want a unified state with the US?"

It wouldn't surprise me. First of all, there are 35 million of us, and secondly, the subject does get mooted from time to time. That said, we were never part of the United States; certainly not a part of the same political entity within living memory... unlike Ireland.

Anonymous said...

Here's one piece of logic old bean - read some opinion poll data before claiming nearly half of dear old British Ulster wants a UI.

Anonymous said...

Peteram79 said :

"The horrible truth for northern republicans is that their attitude has most in common with a northern loyalist, both hung up on an issue that really doesn't matter to anyone else.."

I always suspected that your information about nationalists in the southern part of our country is guided by your own ignornace rather than by facts - I did not expect you to confirm it so convincingly though.

The really horrible truth for unionists is that the English absolutely do not consider Ulster unionists as their fellow-countrymen. And you know it.


Don't forget to wear your Ireland shirt on Saturday in Twickenham.

- Munsterman

Anonymous said...

As a young southener, I can tell you we are greatly interested in what happens in Ulster!
Happy to wait for a UI in the next 15 years or so...

Anonymous said...

Opinion polls from where - the Belfast Telegraph?!

Your comparison of USA-Canada and the 2 jurisdictions of Ireland is typical of all Unionist denial of reality. You would have clueless people believe that Northern Ireland is all Unionist and it's only the South pushing for unification.

"British" Ulster haha. Remind me again how many of dear old Ulster's nine historic counties have Unionist majorities?!

The tide of history waits for no man.

hoboroad said...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8529052.stm

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said:

"Opinion polls from where - the Belfast Telegraph?!"

There's been a steady stream of them over the last few years from a variety of sources. You are in denial I'm afraid, but that is your right.

"British" Ulster haha. Remind me again how many of dear old Ulster's nine historic counties have Unionist majorities?!"

British Ulster is that part of historical Ulster's territory ruled by The UK. Historical Ulster was, of course, a territorial entity created by The British in The Elizabethan age, as was every Irish county. Ulster prior to British rule varied greatly in size.

"The tide of history waits for no man."

Pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...

peteram79 said...

Paddy C, you are talking about changes within Northern Ireland's political landscape, not about the day-to-day concerns of its inhabitants.

I've never met a single southerners, and I've met hundreds, that has an interest in ther border question. There's also a growing swathe of Norrthern Irelanders who have zero interest in the border question. In that way you could say those on the island have grown closer, except that all these people are happy with the status quo rather than the scenario you prefer.

NTNA, you really are scraping the barrel with your attempts to beatify Sylvia Hermon. David Trimble, for example, was an intellectual heavyweight to compare with some of Parliament's big beast of the past 30 years. John Taylor, Nigel Dodds, David Burnside, there aren't exactly a shortage of unionist MPs that have won great respect in the political, academic and business worlds. Ms Hermon is a frankly mad irrelevance who rode on the coat tails of her impressive husband, you know the one who led a state-sponsored unionist death squad...

Munsterman, I'm afraid I don't have a ticket for Twickers but I'll be watching in my Ulster shirt with lots of my fellow Irish supporting friends from both sides of the borders. The Northern fans like me continue to support, even if with less enthusiasm than before, despite the fact that the IRFU considers Ulster to be "away" for the Irish team

Anonymous said...

Opinion polls in the six counties about Irish unification are utterly worthless and anyone who has an honest bone in their body knows it.

And you didn't answer the question: how many of Ulster's nine counties are majority British Unionist? It's a simple question.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said:

"Opinion polls in the six counties about Irish unification are utterly worthless and anyone who has an honest bone in their body knows it."

Ye, right.

"And you didn't answer the question: how many of Ulster's nine counties are majority British Unionist? It's a simple question."

Ulster doesn't have nine counties, in fact it no longer exists. There is the region of The UK called Northern Ireland comprising 6 of the pre-partition counties (which people are increasingly calling British Ulster) and the 3 remaining counties which people in The ROI can call what they like (Irish Ulster perhaps?). As regards Northern Ireland/British Ulster, it has an Ulster British majority.

Incidentally, it would be possible to rename Northern Ireland, British Ulster, or even just Ulster should The UK desire it - The ROI would have no say in the matter (as a completely foreign state).

hoboroad said...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Burnside?wasRedirected=true

hoboroad said...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/january/11/newsid_2520000/2520189.stm

Paddy Canuck said...

Pete:

"Paddy C, you are talking about changes within Northern Ireland's political landscape, not about the day-to-day concerns of its inhabitants."

As far as I can see, they're the same thing. We don't see people being shot in the streets or buildings blowing up anymore. I'd say those political changes affected quite a lot in day-to-day terms. Of course, it's clearly not in your interests to own up to the obvious.

"I've never met a single southerners, and I've met hundreds, that has an interest in ther border question."

Ah, there's nothing like hearsay evidence to brush up a case. Untestable, unaccountable, unrepresentative, but who can deny its power. :) Still, I've spoken to, oh, thousands of people who say you're setting off their BS detectors... ;)

"all these people are happy with the status quo rather than the scenario you prefer."

I've already made the case here, Pete, that I think people are getting accustomed to the way things are, and there might never be a de jure united Ireland. Maybe you missed that because it didn't sound terroristic enough. The scenario I prefer isn't one where Northern Ireland's stuffed willy-nilly into the Republic; just one where Protestant bigots don't call the shots and everyone else be damned. Whether the taxes go to as pounds to Westminster or or euros to Leinster House is a separate matter.

Anonymous said...

Haha, you won't answer county by county because the truth hurts.

Keep telling yourself that pathetic rubbish Ulster doesn't have nine counties kid and someone in your asylum might believe you someday.

Paddy Canuck said...

"The ROI would have no say in the matter (as a completely foreign state)."

Before 1998, maybe. Not anymore.

Anonymous said...

Andy's back, and crazier than ever!

"Here's one piece of logic old bean - read some opinion poll data before claiming nearly half of dear old British Ulster wants a UI."

"British Ulster is that part of historical Ulster's territory ruled by The UK"

So, British Ulster is ruled by the U.K. And British Ulster doesn't want a United Ireland. And then, shazam! "Ulster doesn't have nine counties, in fact it no longer exists"

Like that, it disappears. Even places that don't exist don't want a United Ireland! Now THAT'S some true blue Unionism right there.

And people that don't exist think Andy McCann is sane. His imaginary friends for starters.

Anonymous said...

I think you've got confused over how much power our Irish cousins actually have in British Ulster.

New times, New approach said...

Oh dear Pete, looks like I was right and it's bye bye to Sylvia, so that'll be 0 representation in Westminster. But don't worry, it won't matter soon. It'll just be another foreign country.

Anonymous said...

peteram79 :

Good to hear you'll be supporting Ireland just like you did in Paris - up to you to wear whatever shirt you feel comfortable in.

At least the IRFU have made some attempt by bringing in a neutral anthem, in all fairness to them. Most All-Ireland representative teams get on just fine with the present arrangement(s).

2 questions for you :

(i) what do you want the IRFU to do to make you more comfortable ?
(ii) what would be on your "shopping -list" to feel comfortable as part of a re-United Ireland.
Yes, yes, yes - we all know YOU think it's not going to happen in a million years......but let's suppose for a moment.

- Munsterman

Paddy Canuck said...

"what would be on your "shopping -list" to feel comfortable as part of a re-United Ireland."

It's a fair question, and one that could lead to interesting answers, after all.

Anonymous said...

Deafning silence..............

peteram79 said...

Munsterman, been away with work. Will answer your questions now I've returned.

With regard to the IRFU, the obvious one is removing the SS in Dublin. This should have been done as soon as Ireland's Call (a dreadful song, but an admirable sentiment) was introduced, but certainly in the lead-up to the Italy debacle. While I agree it was ridiculous to comtemplating playing GSTQ at Ravenhill, this should have flagged up how equally ridiculous it is to play SS as the British unioinst players and supporters gather in the cause of the Ireland (not Republic of Ireland) team.

Regarding comfort in a UI, it's, for me as you acknowledge, a hypothetical question and not one I've thought much about. But I get the feeling my suggestions wouldn't play too well with a southern audience. A few initial thoughts:

1. A new anthem. We British don't really appreciate being called despots

2. A new flag. Yes, I get the peace between green and orange intention, but I'm afraid the Tricolour has been defiled by too many republican terrorist scrotes to ever be acceptable as a national flag encompassing the unioinst tradition

3. A public apology from the south's government for their active and passive support of the IRA's murder campaign and their part in destroying the Faulkner peace iniative of 1971

4. A full audit of government spending on monoculture, to avoid wasting our tax money. The compulsory teaching of Irish in schools is an obvious saving.

5. The full commitment of Ireland to being a secular state, with a modern approach to social issues, e.g. abortion.

These are this unionist's 5 miniumum preconditions. I'd imagine some Unionists may have disagreement with aspects of point 5, but in the main I can't see too many agreeingto a UI without movement on the first four and reassurances about the role of the state church.

Horseman said...

peteram79,

To be honest, if your 5-point plan was all there was we'd has a UI tomorrow.

Most people in the south have no love of the SS, and I guess most find the problems it causes to Irish sports teams a bit embarrassing.

A new flag .. again, while we're all used to our flags, I've never felt (esthetically) that green and orange really go well together. Have a big competition for a new flag and I guarantee most southerners would be happy with the result, if it was part of the reunification process.

Point 3 is strange - there is no proof that the southern government 'actively' supported the IRA - and if it did it would be a criminal issue so persuable through the courts. As for 'passive' support, the south spent more per capita on security during the 'troubles' than the north, and was much harder on the IRA (if you doubt me, ask any ex-IRA person). The SB in the south was fairly relentless.

In general I think you're pushing at an open door - or rather, the door is open, just waiting for your push!

Anonymous said...

peteram79 :

Thanks for your reply.

1. IRFU
New anthem - fine with me. Most rugby fans would not have a problem there. Agreed "Ireland's Call" is woeful - but I could live with that until a better one is agreed on.

2. Re-United Ireland

(i) New agreed anthem - fine.
(ii) New agreed flag - fine.
(iii) I would personally be prepared to listen to all grieviances from all sides.
(iv) Negotiable - not a stumbling block for sure if push would come to shove.
(v) Fine - as you said yourself modern Ireland is changing rapidly
so you'll find a lot of support here across the board.

There's no state church in Ireland and the role of religion in Irish life is diminishing rapidly.
We probably have a lot more in common than you think and I am certain than unionist fears can be addressed and satisfied.

Here's looking forward to beating England in Twickenham tomorrow.
Enjoy.

- Munsterman

peteram79 said...

Interesting take, Horseman. Be a while before I push, thanks!! I didn't go into any of the economic concerns, as I didn't think there's much an RoI government can do about those, certainly not at the present. The reaction of hardline loyalism would be another concern.

But there's obviously, also, my feelings towards the UK and towards Northern Ireland, my feelings towards Ireland the island, and my lack of feelings towards RoI the state that again a Dublin government trying to accomodate me couldn't really impact either

Paddy Canuck said...

Pete:

"We British don't really appreciate being called despots"

You might wanna start by ceasing to refer to Shinners as "terrorist scum", then. Otherwise, stuff your sentiments where the sun don't sympathetically shine.